[jetboy jetgirl]

n/a: should we talk about performing gender?

Hanna: I think that's what I'm referring to.

n/a: i'm wearing leather pants, it feels right. :)

Hanna: Heh. :)
Hanna: I am wearing jeans and a sweater. Feels right.

n/a: oh, i meant those are good clothes to talk about performing gender in.
n/a: i'm planning to do that tonight.

Hanna: Oh, okay. ;)

n/a: so, are jeans & a sweater good clothes to talk about performing gender in?

Hanna: Sure.

n/a: ;)

n/a: okay.
n/a: here is what i am thinking about:
n/a: (2 bullets will appear in a few minutes)

Hanna: :)
Hanna: As long as they don't come through the window. :)

n/a: --it is hard to be pro-trans when you believe gender is a question of performance, it is hard to justify the expense of srs if it isn't about the body in some way. --sometimes i feel like all the genders i have are performance. that when i am not performing, i don't have a gender.
n/a: not through the window, hon.
n/a: there is tension for me between those two ideas i just said.

Hanna: What is that tension?

n/a: well.
n/a: that for me, perhaps gender is performance sometimes.

n/a: but that to say that, can be anti-transexual.

Hanna: Can be yes.
Hanna: Can I say something?

n/a: yah!

Hanna: k.
Hanna: Okay, here is the way I see things.
Hanna: And I have talked with many people about this, and I don't think it is all that _personal_.
Hanna: So, there is sex and there is gender.
Hanna: And people are using "gender" to refer to both, because academic people use gender when referring to either sex or gender.
Hanna: Because to say "sex" is a bad thing, there is prudishness inherent in acfem language. I don't think that many people talk about this, but it is definately there.
Hanna: So, there needs to be some admission of that, that their language is flawed, and that a lot of the work they have done needs to be redone in a sex-positive way.
Hanna: So, there is sex and gender.... and gender is all about performance.
Hanna: But sex is all about body.
Hanna: i was talking with an interesexed person the other day, about body and about gender.
Hanna: And asked her if she thought that transsexual people were maybe just another form of intersexed people.... that in many transsexuals, the intersexed part is less apparent.
Hanna: And reading K's page, there is a lot of echoes of that conversation.
Hanna: Then the conversation is not about gender at all.

Hanna: Because I feel that I have a right to be femme or macho or whatever, just the same as anyone else.
Hanna: Yet it is more of a struggle for me, because the "gender roles" of a transsexual woman are even more limited than they are for non-trans women.

Hanna: Same goes opposite for trans men.

Hanna: So, that is why, i think, so many trans people talk about "gender liberation" because we feel that intense pressure to conform more than anyone else does.

Hanna: So, of course, we're going to rebel against that.
Hanna: But to rebel against that, puts us into some skeery places, if I want to be a top and fuck people, and wear jeans and a t-shirt, what is different from me and a guy?

n/a: that you're a woman!

Hanna: So, the part of our politics that is lacking (not flawed) but lacking, is that we don't make a very good distinction between body and performance.

Hanna: My body is female and I have a right to do anything I want to my body to do whatever the fuck i want with it.

n/a: yes!

Hanna: It is about my Identity, not about my gender.
Hanna: My gender, though it is hard to say this, is separte from my body....
Hanna: Even though that separation is purely theoretical, in reality, it is impossible to separate them.
Hanna: Which is what makes it so impossible for non transsexual people to understand us.

n/a: so, the distinction yr making.
n/a: is it that sex has to do with the body, and gender has to do with the roles?

Hanna: Yes.

n/a: see, then i wonder about the words, transexual and transgendered.

Hanna: Which is why there are trans men who are happy with their bodies the way they are... happy in female bodies but having man genders.

n/a: well.

Hanna: And same the opposite.

n/a: see, that's hard.
n/a: because for me....
n/a: okay, first off i don't always experience my body as female.
n/a: & second, i never experience s's body as female.
n/a: including before he had surgery.

n/a: something i have been struggling with, is what happens if i say my history is a male history?
n/a: that going to slumber parties with girls is a male experience?

Hanna: I'm sure a lot of men wouldn't mind that. ;)

n/a: that trading stickers, & participating in this intense female world, was an experience of boys....

n/a: oh, yes, there is sex.
n/a: (as in, the desire, and the act.)

n/a: but there is also the division of people, the fact that i have had access to lives i would not have had access to.

n/a: that i was not told girls were other.

n/a: that i was told boys were other.
n/a: i'm not sure if this conflicts with what you were saying, but i sorta feel it does.
n/a: that for me, the body is involved, but the body may be ambiguously gendered.
n/a: (damn! is that an academic sentence or what?)
n/a: discourse discourse discourse...
n/a:

Hanna: Okay, bodies... many bodies are ambiguously gendered.... and many bodies are ambiguously sexed.
Hanna: Which are you talking about?
n/a: which part of it is how i perceive my body?

n/a: sex or gender?

Hanna: Right.

n/a: when i think my body is male, or female, is that sex or gender?
n/a: i'm asking; i don't know.

Hanna: If one says that gender is performance.... if it's (to be all discursive) contextual.... then does that help?

n/a: i don't see how to make the split, in my life.
n/a: i see the split in theory.

Hanna: And that sex is likewise, not contextual.

n/a: when i look down at myself at an angle and i see a boy, i don't know if thats performance or biology.
n/a: i'm not sure it's either.

Hanna: Well, like I said, it is near impossible to separate sex from gender.

n/a: okay.

Hanna: I think these conversations would be fun if we lived in a world where trans people weren't hunted down and murdered for being ambiguous.

n/a: yeah, i'm getting really tense.
n/a: i feel like something is at stake when i talk about this.
n/a: which is the other thing that i think ideas of performance and play doesn't reflect.

Hanna: Because I don't think we are going to come up with a single sentence that we both go "Ah! This is great, let's publish it and solve all the world's problems!"

n/a: heh :)
n/a: if anyone could, it is us. :)

n/a: may i edit this & put it on my webby page?

Hanna: Yea, sure. :)

n/a: if i send you a copy first to approve?
n/a: i want this to be the intro page.

Hanna: Aw, just go ahead and put it up.
Hanna: Also, I would like to state that I am single and looking!
Hanna: *LOL*

n/a: and i would like to state, she is a babe, she is a catch~!
n/a: talk to me if you wanna be hooked up. :)

Hanna: Please, use no hooks.

n/a: no hooks!

Hanna: :)

n/a: only velcro fishing apparatus.

Hanna: Yea!

n/a: gol

Hanna: I will wear a fuzzy sweater, you'll know it's me!

n/a: you heard the lady....

	[jetboy jetgirl]
jetboy jetgirl matthew, brandon, tyra, me sorry hot pink, leopard print, lame?	n/a: should we talk about performing gender? Hanna: I think that's what I'm referring to. n/a: i'm wearing leather pants, it feels right. :) Hanna: Heh. :) Hanna: I am wearing jeans and a sweater. Feels right. n/a: oh, i meant those are good clothes to talk about performing gender in. n/a: i'm planning to do that tonight. Hanna: Oh, okay. ;) n/a: so, are jeans & a sweater good clothes to talk about performing gender in? Hanna: Sure. n/a: ;) n/a: okay. n/a: here is what i am thinking about: n/a: (2 bullets will appear in a few minutes) Hanna: :) Hanna: As long as they don't come through the window. :) n/a: --it is hard to be pro-trans when you believe gender is a question of performance, it is hard to justify the expense of srs if it isn't about the body in some way. --sometimes i feel like all the genders i have are performance. that when i am not performing, i don't have a gender. n/a: not through the window, hon. n/a: there is tension for me between those two ideas i just said. Hanna: What is that tension? n/a: well. n/a: that for me, perhaps gender is performance sometimes. n/a: but that to say that, can be anti-transexual. Hanna: Can be yes. Hanna: Can I say something? n/a: yah! Hanna: k. Hanna: Okay, here is the way I see things. Hanna: And I have talked with many people about this, and I don't think it is all that _personal_. Hanna: So, there is sex and there is gender. Hanna: And people are using "gender" to refer to both, because academic people use gender when referring to either sex or gender. Hanna: Because to say "sex" is a bad thing, there is prudishness inherent in acfem language. I don't think that many people talk about this, but it is definately there. Hanna: So, there needs to be some admission of that, that their language is flawed, and that a lot of the work they have done needs to be redone in a sex-positive way. Hanna: So, there is sex and gender.... and gender is all about performance. Hanna: But sex is all about body. Hanna: i was talking with an interesexed person the other day, about body and about gender. Hanna: And asked her if she thought that transsexual people were maybe just another form of intersexed people.... that in many transsexuals, the intersexed part is less apparent. Hanna: And reading K's page, there is a lot of echoes of that conversation. Hanna: Then the conversation is not about gender at all. Hanna: Because I feel that I have a right to be femme or macho or whatever, just the same as anyone else. Hanna: Yet it is more of a struggle for me, because the "gender roles" of a transsexual woman are even more limited than they are for non-trans women. Hanna: Same goes opposite for trans men. Hanna: So, that is why, i think, so many trans people talk about "gender liberation" because we feel that intense pressure to conform more than anyone else does. Hanna: So, of course, we're going to rebel against that. Hanna: But to rebel against that, puts us into some skeery places, if I want to be a top and fuck people, and wear jeans and a t-shirt, what is different from me and a guy? n/a: that you're a woman! Hanna: So, the part of our politics that is lacking (not flawed) but lacking, is that we don't make a very good distinction between body and performance. Hanna: My body is female and I have a right to do anything I want to my body to do whatever the fuck i want with it. n/a: yes! Hanna: It is about my Identity, not about my gender. Hanna: My gender, though it is hard to say this, is separte from my body.... Hanna: Even though that separation is purely theoretical, in reality, it is impossible to separate them. Hanna: Which is what makes it so impossible for non transsexual people to understand us. n/a: so, the distinction yr making. n/a: is it that sex has to do with the body, and gender has to do with the roles? Hanna: Yes. n/a: see, then i wonder about the words, transexual and transgendered. Hanna: Which is why there are trans men who are happy with their bodies the way they are... happy in female bodies but having man genders. n/a: well. Hanna: And same the opposite. n/a: see, that's hard. n/a: because for me.... n/a: okay, first off i don't always experience my body as female. n/a: & second, i never experience s's body as female. n/a: including before he had surgery. n/a: something i have been struggling with, is what happens if i say my history is a male history? n/a: that going to slumber parties with girls is a male experience? Hanna: I'm sure a lot of men wouldn't mind that. ;) n/a: that trading stickers, & participating in this intense female world, was an experience of boys.... n/a: oh, yes, there is sex. n/a: (as in, the desire, and the act.) n/a: but there is also the division of people, the fact that i have had access to lives i would not have had access to. n/a: that i was not told girls were other. n/a: that i was told boys were other. n/a: i'm not sure if this conflicts with what you were saying, but i sorta feel it does. n/a: that for me, the body is involved, but the body may be ambiguously gendered. n/a: (damn! is that an academic sentence or what?) n/a: discourse discourse discourse... n/a: Hanna: Okay, bodies... many bodies are ambiguously gendered.... and many bodies are ambiguously sexed. Hanna: Which are you talking about? n/a: which part of it is how i perceive my body? n/a: sex or gender? Hanna: Right. n/a: when i think my body is male, or female, is that sex or gender? n/a: i'm asking; i don't know. Hanna: If one says that gender is performance.... if it's (to be all discursive) contextual.... then does that help? n/a: i don't see how to make the split, in my life. n/a: i see the split in theory. Hanna: And that sex is likewise, not contextual. n/a: when i look down at myself at an angle and i see a boy, i don't know if thats performance or biology. n/a: i'm not sure it's either. Hanna: Well, like I said, it is near impossible to separate sex from gender. n/a: okay. Hanna: I think these conversations would be fun if we lived in a world where trans people weren't hunted down and murdered for being ambiguous. n/a: yeah, i'm getting really tense. n/a: i feel like something is at stake when i talk about this. n/a: which is the other thing that i think ideas of performance and play doesn't reflect. Hanna: Because I don't think we are going to come up with a single sentence that we both go "Ah! This is great, let's publish it and solve all the world's problems!" n/a: heh :) n/a: if anyone could, it is us. :) n/a: may i edit this & put it on my webby page? Hanna: Yea, sure. :) n/a: if i send you a copy first to approve? n/a: i want this to be the intro page. Hanna: Aw, just go ahead and put it up. Hanna: Also, I would like to state that I am single and looking! Hanna: LOL n/a: and i would like to state, she is a babe, she is a catch~! n/a: talk to me if you wanna be hooked up. :) Hanna: Please, use no hooks. n/a: no hooks! Hanna: :) n/a: only velcro fishing apparatus. Hanna: Yea! n/a: gol Hanna: I will wear a fuzzy sweater, you'll know it's me! n/a: you heard the lady....
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